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southbankbornnbred
10:31 Wed Oct 18
Re: England v Eyeties Euro Qualifier
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FWIW, I thought that front three (four if you count Bellingham as the most advanced CM/AM) last night was excellent - and possibly England's strongest attack.
Bellingham creating behind Kane, with Rashford and Foden wide of them, has a lot of potential. You could argue for Saka instead of one of the wide men (although Foden is more creative and Rashford more direct/scores more). But last night we saw that when they have possession and space, they can be very good against strong sides.
To me, the big questions marks going into next year's tournament are: what's the best CB pairing, and who partners Declan in the deeper CM roles?
Plus, how good will France be?!
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bigfrank
10:27 Wed Oct 18
Re: England v Eyeties Euro Qualifier
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Didn't Hoddle and Venables before him play 3 at the back.
Sven and McClaren both perservered with 4-4-2 and the odd diamond formation
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southbankbornnbred
10:21 Wed Oct 18
Re: England v Eyeties Euro Qualifier
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The biggest improvement to England's football team in recent years - and, let's face it, it has all happened under Southgate - has been finally ditching the dreary and hugely damaging obsession with 4-4-2.
Since Hoddle had his wheelchair and witchcraft meltdown, England has appointed a succession of managers fundamentally committed to a rigid 4-4-2 which, at international level, has been out of date since the 1980s.
Keegan, Sven, McClaren, Capello, Hodgson and Allardyce were all tactically old fashioned and out of date (for the international scene) when they took the job. Even the caretaker manager, Wilkinson, was completely obsessed with 4-4-2. Tp the point where, when we had shit options upfront alongside Owen, the likes of Keegan and Sven kept going with Heskey.
The reason 4-4-2 was well out of date is that good coaches realised you could pack your central midfield - where 60%+ of the play flows - against England's two CMs and pretty much spend 90 minutes making the pair of them chase shadows on hot summer's days during tournaments. It left England without the ball for too long in THE key area of the pitch.
All this bollocks about why Gerrard and Lampard couldn't work together, for example, was complete claptrap from day one. The solution was to play an extra CM in there with them, so that you were rarely, if ever, outgunned and outnumbered in central midfield.
Lampard made this point not long after he retired, when he said he used to turn up for 442England and sides like Paraguay would pack their central midfield all day.
Southgate, for his many flaws, has at least made the structural change which means England are rarely outmanned in central midfield. It gives them more of the ball and allows the CMs the luxury of not chasing shadows for 90 minutes on hot days in Korea, Brazil and elsewhere.
Hence, since the disaster against Iceland in 2016, England (under the one guy not wedded to 4-4-2) have been very competitive in all competitions.
Southgate's big failure so far is failing to pick the right blend of players now that he's got the core structure of the team right. Hence, that ludicrously defensive line up in the final against Italy, which had Mason Mount playing on the left wing just because of his high press. That was taking things too far.
Last night, with a team packed with talented players, that blend started to look better. It doesn't make England a shoo-in for a tournament win, but it is all progress - and has made us very competitive in recent years against the likes of Germany, France (we outplayed them in the second half of that quarter final) and Italy.
The English version of 4-4-2 killed the England team for many years.
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Fauxstralian
9:38 Wed Oct 18
Re: England v Eyeties Euro Qualifier
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I see both Mexico & Ghana were playing in the USA
Alvarez played the 90mins in Mexico's 2-2 draw with Germany & Kudus 75mins in Ghana's 4-0 defeat by USA
Finished in the early hours so hopefully back with a couple of days preparation for Villa
For the 2024 Euros France are obviously the strong favourites , England next and a fair distance to the rest.
England were a Kane penalty miss away from matching France at the World Cup and have the talent to test them .... but maybe not the manager.
Most of the other usual challengers as set out by many earlier are nowhere near their previous best.
Italy may not even make it and they look a team in transition.
You'd expect Germany at home to rise to the occasion but they are way off a traditional German team.
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Russ of the BML
6:33 Wed Oct 18
Re: England v Eyeties Euro Qualifier
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Manuel 1:02 Wed Oct 18
So you did! Apologies. Mis-read that.
Some really good posts on here. Agree with all. I would say historically Portugal have always been there or there-abouts but again, they have fallen away with true quality. Even though they have a good qualifying record. Still reliant on Ronaldo. And no real young talent coming through at the quality of Bellingham, Foden, Rice. I genuinely believe England's B side would give Portugal a tough game.
For me you cannot look past England and France.
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zico
4:23 Wed Oct 18
Re: England v Eyeties Euro Qualifier
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Yep the spine of the side. I think if we had now a centre back like Bobby Moore and a goalkeeper like Gordon Banks we would be right up there as a national side. Even a Rio and David Seaman would do it.
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swindon hammer
4:04 Wed Oct 18
Re: England v Eyeties Euro Qualifier
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Liverpool were pretty much the best team in the world in the late 70s and early 80s so I can understand why Greenwood would try and replicate that by picking lots of their players like Clemence, Neal, Thompson, Lee, Kennedy & McDermott.
Unfortunately the backbone of that great side were Scottish in Hanson, Souness & Dalglish.
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zico
2:15 Wed Oct 18
Re: England v Eyeties Euro Qualifier
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swindon hammer 1:44 Wed Oct 18
Yep agree with that. What is interesting to me though is the England of the 70's failed on so many levels. You look at the talent available, certainly in attacking areas to the extent that the likes of Alan Hudson, Rodney Marsh, Frank Worthington etc couldn't get into the team. Maybe there was pressure in the years following winning the World Cup as well or maybe we just had so many top individuals rather than a top team. I seem to remember Greenwood tried to rectify that by playing most of the Liverpool team.
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BRANDED
1:54 Wed Oct 18
Re: England v Eyeties Euro Qualifier
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Oh. In the summer I discussed football training, coaching and general preparation with an Italian youth coach and he said that St Georges Park has made a huge difference.
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BRANDED
1:48 Wed Oct 18
Re: England v Eyeties Euro Qualifier
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If you look at who is playing in the top leagues they are players from all over the World. That wasnt the case not long ago. Or, lets say, much less the case. In England it looked like all these foreign imports would result in less quality in the English players but the opposite has happened. The best English players have to compete with the best players in the World, both internally in their clubs and on the field of play. This import of great talent has helped English players. Also, the top two English leagues as about as competitive as you’ll get in World football. Yes, there are a small number of exceptional teams but there is almost always a game.
So, the English game has improved and the English players too.
All we need is a great manager.
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swindon hammer
1:44 Wed Oct 18
Re: England v Eyeties Euro Qualifier
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zico,
regarding Spain, they were very much like England where they had a strong league full of really good players at top clubs but at International level they always flattered to deceive and struggled with the pressure.
When they finally did win something it propelled them to go on and win more in the period afterwards which is my point about England really needing to win the first one (in over 50 years) to give them more belief and a launching pad going forward.
Of course that belief and success doesn’t last forever, much like club football with the likes of Liverpool & Man Utd but for this generation of players it can be.
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zico
1:30 Wed Oct 18
Re: England v Eyeties Euro Qualifier
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Interesting what you say about DNA. The Dutch, Germans and Italians for years and years seemed to have the same strengths but in the last 10 years or so that's started to disappear. As Russ says the Italians lack world class defenders, but that is what they had in abundance in for years. The Germans seem to have lost that collective strength and the Dutch have just fallen away as one of the top nations in the game. I wouldn't put Spain in that historical bracket as I think that side back in the 2000's was a world class anomaly and whilst their Euros record is decent their World Cup record is similar to England's.
If you go back to 1998 when England qualified for the WC in Rome that 0-0 draw was considered an unbelievable result against a top Italian side. The celebrations were incredible, now a win over Italy is considered just a good result but they are no longer a world class side.
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swindon hammer
1:20 Wed Oct 18
Re: England v Eyeties Euro Qualifier
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It’s a English mentality that prevents us going all the way in the major tournaments. Due to the constant failures of the past and the English media building up expectations it seems to create a fear of failure in the players.
As others have said it’s rarely to do with other countries outplaying us. It’s nearly always down to the small things such as penalties, lack of discipline etc.
In terms of historical success we should be matching Germany, Italy, Spain & France. We have had the players to do that but our players seem to freeze in big moments regardless of who the manager has been.
Robson, Venables, Sven, Capello. They are all highly successful managers but none of them have managed to get England over the line.
It feels like England need to win a tournament to break that mentality and pressure barrier to then go on and have the confidence to win some more.
That penalty shoot out loss to Italy was a huge missed opportunity. It would have finally removed the constant reminders of not winning anything since 1966 which seems to be a constant burden.
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,
1:13 Wed Oct 18
Re: England v Eyeties Euro Qualifier
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Russ, both Denmark in 1992 and Greece in 2004 have won the European Nations championship as unfancied underdogs. So it is not always the big football nations that win things. As for the 2024 tournament I agree with most of your list but for me the likes of Portugal have a better chance than say Italy.
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Manuel
1:02 Wed Oct 18
Re: England v Eyeties Euro Qualifier
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Russ - Fwiw, I did say we have a great chance, not good.
Agree with your analysis of the oppo, maybe Portugal are a dark horse, even Croatia?
I think a big problem for England now is it's seemingly part of our DNA to fall in the real big games. When you look back we haven't often lost to better sides, it's usually been on pens or through missing a pen, like last year against France. Southgate himself has had huge disappointments for England as a player and now as a manager, that must be at the back of his mind a lot, so fuck knows how we can get over that last hurdle and why next summer will be different, unless like you say Bellingham makes the difference.
I don't think Southgate did much wrong against France, it was all us second half, I don't think he will bottle it next summer, he ain't totally stupid, he knows he has to go for this one, and the players that he has at his disposal demand that he does so.
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Russ of the BML
12:50 Wed Oct 18
Re: England v Eyeties Euro Qualifier
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Manuel - Good post. But I would say we have not just a good chance but an excellent chance.
Historically, (well, in my lifetime) and generally, in any Euro's its always going to be out of the following group:
Germany
Spain
Italy
France
England
Holland
But, as time has gone by, Holland have dropped away and haven't rebuilt suitably. Italy do not appear to have any 'world class' defenders or attackers right now and do seem to be in transition. Spain have slipped and are in transition with a young generation that's not yet capable. Germany. the same, and it seems have missed a generation.
So for me it leaves France and England. Both have superior squads to the other countries and will be favourites.
Problem for me, will England being a favourite with arguably the best international squad in world football be a hindrance to Southgate? Will he cope with the expectation? Previously we've seen huge disappointments where, as soon as we've met someone with any balls and know-how, in Croatia 2018, Italy 2020 and France 2022, we've fallen over.
So does Southgate have it in him to push this squad over the line to a trophy. Or, will he, once again, fail when it matters? History says he will fail. And he will do so because, well, he's just Gareth Southgate. An ordinary man with an extraordinary squad. A man that should've won at least one trophy by now.
But, this time there will be one difference. Bellingham. I know he played against France in 2022. But then he was an international newby. Finding finding his young feet at the highest of levels. Since then he has smashed it for Dortmund, moved to Madrid and become their talisman and is now an international pro. His rise has been unbelievable and like something out of a comic book.
But I believe that when it comes to next years Euro's he will be the key. The extra spark that Southgate needs. I think we'll win it with Belllingham. Without him we will lose to France in the final.
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Manuel
3:50 Wed Oct 18
Re: England v Eyeties Euro Qualifier
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As for the football, all we can say is that England have a great chance of winning the Euro's. You can never really confidently predict any side to win a tournament as only one team can win and anything can happen over one 90+ mins game of football. My worry would be the CB spots, that could be our failing. On the plus side, we now (finally) have a new Gascoigne in Bellingham, and maybe Kane will be even better now he's at Munich? But then you have over cautious and too loyal Southgate. Anyway, should be good next year in Germany.
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Manuel
3:13 Wed Oct 18
Re: England v Eyeties Euro Qualifier
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See there are still some on here harping on about shit from months back trying to point score. It's incredible how some take this place so seriously. Get over yourselves ffs, it's an online football forum full of cunts. You ain't important.
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bigfrank
1:12 Wed Oct 18
Re: England v Eyeties Euro Qualifier
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My starting 11
Pickford
Walker
Stones
Guehi
Shaw
Rice
Ward-Prowse
Foden
Bellingham
Rashford/Grealish
Kane
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Come On You Irons
12:49 Wed Oct 18
Re: England v Eyeties Euro Qualifier
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A solid win. All set up by Billingham's world class dive in the first half to win the penalty. What a player! *rolls eyes*
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Pagey
12:36 Wed Oct 18
Re: England v Eyeties Euro Qualifier
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I fully expect us to win the Euros with Bellingham and Rice in midfield. Both are pure class. The way Bellingham speaks, for a 20-year old, is unbelievable. An absolute superstar.
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